I just had me cams in my car yesterday. Wow..sounds like a V8 choking on karrots. I have a few questions if any of you tech or performance guys can help me out.

The car seems completely "flat" in the rpm range between 3000-5000. Once I hit 5000 the car explodes. I miss that low-end torque and pick up. When I say flat, I mean fall on your face flat! No power at all.(Like driving a Honda). Is this normal? I was told by ImSport Racing (Pat)(installer) that this is normal due to the large duration in the cams. I am not sure if I can some how substitute something or add something to help recovery that lower rpm power. Now I have to rev past 4000 on the start just to get the car pulling. Any help will be appreciated. I understand the concept and the idea behind the cams, I just wanted to see if any has any solutions to the lower-end power loss. Now my power band has completely changed. 4500 to 7000 is when its all at now. I will Dyno soon and let you guys know what type of gains I have pulled. Please help in answers. Thanks guys!

Well, this is just a quick guess, but you might try making your exhaust slightly more restrictive. Do you have a resonator in there or just the mufflers at the end?

Good to hear you got some cams in there Rainer. What cams did you decided to go with. The one's DJ was going to use. Man I need to go back up to Imsport some more. Maybe you can use some of the old juice (nitrous) to get you goign there. Just a little 35-50 shot. But then we all know where that leads too. :biggrin:

Do you know what the cam specs are? Stock is 214 duration and 314 lift. The cams I got from TC are 250 and 340. I did lose a little power in the lower and mid rmps, but then gained it all back and then some more when I tuned the air-fuel mix with his MAFterburner.

Here's my before and after dyno for the cams:
(Other mods: I/H/E/BBTB/Stage 3 IM/pulley/91 REAL ECU)
http://www.shankroidbeast.com/untuned_cams_dingleweed.jpg

Then I tuned them
(Before this dyno I also swapped my stock ecu for my real, if I kept the real in I would have had some more power, about 5 WHP peak to peak, and 5 to 10 more between 5000 rpm and 6000 rpm)
http://www.shankroidbeast.com/8V16.JPG

would cam gears help out?

The cam specs should be stock lift, with 268 degree duration. Also they are intake cams only aswell. for low end I would try intake spacer, then timing and AF changes. For the cams you have, there will definately need to be tunning to get them working right. For the duration , the powerband sounds right. Sometimes I think I should never have sold them. I'll have to wait for your dyno to see if I will regret getting rid of them...

The cam specs should be stock lift, with 268 degree duration. Also they are intake cams only aswell. for low end I would try intake spacer, then timing and AF changes. For the cams you have, there will definately need to be tunning to get them working right. For the duration , the powerband sounds right. Sometimes I think I should never have sold them. I'll have to wait for your dyno to see if I will regret getting rid of them...His car sound ****ing awsome but it is flat before 4000 but it makes up for it after that :shocked:

Thank you everyone who posted. Samba, I will try your ideas. Intake Spacer that we can get from NexGen? And adjusting the timing would have to included adjustable cam gears? And of course tuning would included A/F tuning with an AFC? Just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly. Dyno will be done possibly tomorrow, if the funds are available. Thanks again everyone.

Both cam and ignition timing need to be adjusted. Cam can be done with cam gears, and ignition is still not a cheap solution. For AF , an S-AFC or TC's Mafterburner will work. IM spacer can be found on ebay, or I think TC aswell. I got mine from E2K Developements. Email ek2development@comcast.net

Great. thanks for all the info. I will definitely give you the heads up on everything that is done to make this more efficient.

You're never going to gain all of that low end gain back, such is life with large cams. Get the car tuned (ignition and fuel if possible, also cam gears) and learn to love revving the motor. Then get us some dyno's of big cams!

Will do, just give me a few months. I have to pay everyoen back for eveything I just installed.

So you havent tuned them at all? If not then things will diffinately change after you do that.

nope not tuned yet.

Wow I would put everything on hold and tune that first but thats just me. Congrats on the cams though and good look.

adjustable cam gears are your friend.

so is tuning.

ignition timing would be really nice too.

I am doing a Dyno tomorrow of a "before tuned cams" and then once I get my hands on a S-AFC, I will then do all the tuning and 2nd the #'s for a Dyno.

cool cant wait to see the dynos.

Had a Dyno today, but I was totally not impressed with me runs. I ook it to another place then usely and the word is they Dyno mucher lower on their machines then other places. I went down from 180 max power to 173 max power. And from 186lbs torque to 159lbs torque. I am not sure what happened, but I was in shock and ahhh of my numbers. I will be taking it to be Dynoed at the "usual" location soon and get back to you guys on #'s. The only thing positive that happened for me was that the powerband continued to climb past redline and would have kept climbing after the revlimitor. Who knows where it may have ended up if we had more rpms. The power had no drop off at all. It just kept going straight up past 6800rpms. Sorry guys but I was excited and now disappointed. Any help would be appreciated.

There is such a thing as over-camming the motor. Hope that didnt happen to you...

For a big mod like cams you really should have invested in a dyno before and after install. It would have gone a long way to determining next steps.

I hope not. I don know what else to think right now.

Well, I have seen 2 different dynos on the same day 10 miles apart ready 22whp differance on my friends mustang. Don't be discouraged yet. Get a dyno done at the regulare place and see how that comes out. I would definately recomend a real ECU with 7400 RPM rev limit to start. Real had an ECU tunning version for those cams specifically. Rick told me the combo was good for 25+whp. You may want to email him...

Different dynos will give different result, especially if they are different types of dynos (i.e. inertial or loaded, roller, wheel hub, etc.) It is definitely advantageous to keep going to the same dyno. Unfortunately, I started at an expensive dyno just because it was convenient and I kinda got "stuck" going back to that one, just to keep things consistent. Maybe go back to the place you dynoed before. Have you done anything else since that last dyno?

Hmm, did I read that wrong? Both dyno's were AFTER the cams right? I wouldn't worry about the difference. That's why I said it would have been beneficial to have the before and after cams dyno from the same place.
Ding, what were you at before AF tuning? About 186whp or so? I would think 180whp would be about right if I recall White N/A's mods correctly.

can you post a printout of the dyno?

was the torque climbing as well as the HP?

cause if the torque was staying steady at 156 ft lbs and it holds steady to 7k or more, you will see a nice 200 whp dyno.

No the Torque fell like a stock Dyno. The 180 was before cams and the 173 was with cams. I potentialy lost 7whps and an amazing 27lbs ft torque? I will see if someone will host my Dyno sheet for me. Anyone have an email I can send it to, so you can host it for me? I have a scanner to send it. Let me know and I will email it to you to host for me.

Ibbanez@cox.net or Ibbanez@yahoo.com

Also remember if comparing to Dingleweeds, that you only have intake cams. Also what about all other mods and you have not tuned at all. What are all the mods you have?

Rainer, send me the files to my deviant email address and I can host them on the deviant website server.

By the way the car sounds mean as hell.

Ibbanez@cox.net or Ibbanez@yahoo.com

Also remember if comparing to Dingleweeds, that you only have intake cams. Also what about all other mods and you have not tuned at all. What are all the mods you have?

I have Intake, Exhaust, Nology wires, Headers, Ground wires, and cams. Thats it.

Thanks DJ.
And I am picking up an S-AFC today. Is this really going to help me tune right now? My fuel and air actually look really good. Would it make any sense to go with an S-AFC even if the A/F looks good? Or would it be money better spent getting an Powerchip or Real ECU for my specific application? Need an answer on this ASAP before a make a move buying this S-AFC off Ebay.

Thanks DJ.
And I am picking up an S-AFC today. Is this really going to help me tune right now? My fuel and air actually look really good. Would it make any sense to go with an S-AFC even if the A/F looks good? Or would it be money better spent getting an Powerchip or Real ECU for my specific application? Need an answer on this ASAP before a make a move buying this S-AFC off Ebay.

Has Pat seen the A/F ratios from the dyno? I would call him and see what he thinks.

No the Torque fell like a stock Dyno. The 180 was before cams and the 173 was with cams. I potentialy lost 7whps and an amazing 27lbs ft torque? I will see if someone will host my Dyno sheet for me. Anyone have an email I can send it to, so you can host it for me? I have a scanner to send it. Let me know and I will email it to you to host for me.

Oh, that was before and after cams! Even though it's on different dyno the fact you can feel the loss and it doesn't at least dyno about equal would worry me as well. :'(

Oh, that was before and after cams! Even though it's on different dyno the fact you can feel the loss and it doesn't at least dyno about equal would worry me as well. :'(

I thought the same thing, but wait till you see the dyno sheet. The power never drops, it continues to rise right of the chart.

Rainer, get me the files when you get a chance and I will post them up here.

Has Pat seen the A/F ratios from the dyno? I would call him and see what he thinks.

Yeah he has seen them and he seemed to still want to "tune", but I am not sure if that meant the cam gears or the A/F? I will call him this morning an find out! I dont want to waste any money if my A/F looks good and no need to adjust.

Sent to your email trojan@deviantkonceptz.com, I also sent it to Ibanez, just in case you did not get it.

The only real drop you seen on the Dyno sheet for whps is where the rev limiter kicked in at 6800. I told him to go all the way through to the redline and the rev limiter, then he laid off.

Here you go:

http://www.deviantkonceptz.com/images/camdyno.jpg

Hmm, did I read that wrong? Both dyno's were AFTER the cams right? I wouldn't worry about the difference. That's why I said it would have been beneficial to have the before and after cams dyno from the same place.
Ding, what were you at before AF tuning? About 186whp or so? I would think 180whp would be about right if I recall White N/A's mods correctly.

Darkhamr, Before tuning my A/F I was around 187 to 188 WHP with pretty much the same mods except I had a BBTB/Stage III IM.

White_N/A, your A/F does look fairly good (a lot better than mine did) but you still dip down to 11 around 6k. My A/F at 6k was 12 and I still gained 8 to 9 WHP in that range by flattening it out to 13.5. So, you could probably gain about 10-12 WHPat 6k with some air-fuel tuning. Also cam gears might help a little bit with those long duration intake cams, I would guess. You definitely need an increased rev limiter now! You might even be hitting your max HP around 7k with those cams. Since I installed my cams and tuned them I have hit my (stock) rev limiter quite a few times, whereas I never hit it before (the power used to just die above 6k so there was no point in going any farther.) I can't wait to put my REAL ECU back in.

I know it kinda sucks right now, I was dissappointed with both my before and after cam dynos. You put in a lot of time and money, then you find out you need to spend some more money to get it to run right. But, it was definitely worth it after the tuning, for me.

hmm.. by looking at your mods the 180 seems kinda high to begin with for the before, not saying its wrongs just kinda high. Look at what dingleweed has done to see where he was before and after. Yes tuning would still help out tremendously but now for future improvements I believe you are going to need to get the REAL ECU on top of a piggy back. The reason I say this is that you need the REAL ECU for the rev limiter bumped up to 7400 so that you can get full potential out of it. Think about this your cams could be making a **** load more power but we dont knoe because you ECU is cutting it off. Does any one around you, maybe in your Deviant Konceptz club have a REAL ECU? if so see if they would spot you it till you can replace it. I know its seems a little far fetched but you may be making like 180 - 190 untuned right now but cant access the power. Hope this helps. Oh did you send me the files? Cause I didnt get them.

hmm.. by looking at your mods the 180 seems kinda high to begin with for the before, not saying its wrongs just kinda high. Look at what dingleweed has done to see where he was before and after. Yes tuning would still help out tremendously but now for future improvements I believe you are going to need to get the REAL ECU on top of a piggy back. The reason I say this is that you need the REAL ECU for the rev limiter bumped up to 7400 so that you can get full potential out of it. Think about this your cams could be making a **** load more power but we dont knoe because you ECU is cutting it off. Does any one around you, maybe in your Deviant Konceptz club have a REAL ECU? if so see if they would spot you it till you can replace it. I know its seems a little far fetched but you may be making like 180 - 190 untuned right now but cant access the power. Hope this helps. Oh did you send me the files? Cause I didnt get them.

Thanks guys for the advise. I will still do a A/F tune then, all of you think its nessacary. I will look into Real ECU, and some other things. I will have to take my time with funds and stuff. So it maybe awhile before I can get you guys some real numbers. 180 was right with what I had on there, but then again it was a different Dyno.

Thanks DJ for the psoting of the Dyno sheet, but I cant see it?

hmm.. by looking at your mods the 180 seems kinda high to begin with for the before, not saying its wrongs just kinda high. Look at what dingleweed has done to see where he was before and after. Yes tuning would still help out tremendously but now for future improvements I believe you are going to need to get the REAL ECU on top of a piggy back. The reason I say this is that you need the REAL ECU for the rev limiter bumped up to 7400 so that you can get full potential out of it. Think about this your cams could be making a **** load more power but we dont knoe because you ECU is cutting it off. Does any one around you, maybe in your Deviant Konceptz club have a REAL ECU? if so see if they would spot you it till you can replace it. I know its seems a little far fetched but you may be making like 180 - 190 untuned right now but cant access the power. Hope this helps. Oh did you send me the files? Cause I didnt get them.

And yes I did send you the file to the cox.com address. I wills send it to your yahoo now.

I will have to take my time with funds and stuff. So it maybe awhile before I can get you guys some real numbers.
Hey, I'm right there with ya bub!

180 was right with what I had on there, but then again it was a different Dyno.

When maddogg dynoed his car with I/H/E he had around 180 WHP. He also had the Key Headers, very nice racing-tuned headers.

Opps. Sorry wrong email. That was my old one before I moved. Sorry. It supposed to be Ibbanez@comcast.net. Sorry.

Yeah...well we will see with some tuning what will be done.

i really think that some adjsutable cam gears would help you out a LOT

A/f tuning on top of the real ECU.

IMO those cams would be complete monsters with a turbo application or if you had a SC. I bet 230 whp with a SC at 4 psi at 7400 rpm

i really think that some adjsutable cam gears would help you out a LOT

A/f tuning on top of the real ECU.

IMO those cams would be complete monsters with a turbo application or if you had a SC. I bet 230 whp with a SC at 4 psi at 7400 rpm

Your probably right. It will take me a few months to get things together, but I will do the A/F first and see what I can pull. Then I will get Camgears and then tune again. Then from there it will be an ECU adapted to my mods.

Oh, another question. I have a Lower and Upper IM coming port and polished, and a TB port and poilshed. Will these at all hender my performance with the cams? Maybe to much airflow? I already have a flat spot on the low -end. Would those in anyway worsen or enhance performance? I also have a UD pulley too.

Hender not at all. They will help out a bit. Nothing crazy like 20-30 whp but maybe 8-10. I believe thats what nextgen said he got with his intake. Even if its not his and is Samba's the numbers should be close.

just a thought.. hi cam = high end gain...

Can anyone help me get a link or a hold of REAL ECU? I need to talk to them about an ECU for the cams. I know they have an app for the cams. Someone let me know.

you try there website? http://www.real-engineering.com/

you try there website? http://www.real-engineering.com/
Thank you roro

ok...I just found out my whole problem here, guys give me some insite. I only have Intake Cams. With lon duration and ZERO lift. Now with that type of duration on just one set of cams and not the exhaust cams, the stock exhaust cams and tigerlilly intake cams are fighting against each other? So much air and not enough from the exhaust cams to let it all out? This is just what I am getting from a local shop and some from TC. I heard there is a matching set of exhaust cams for these intake cams, but the duration is so long that the car barely runs on both. What the heck to do now? Should I get some exhaust cams machined alitle mild so I can compliment these long suration intake cams?

No. From what I remember, at least with the beta, is that the exhuast cam is actually quite large and doesnt prove to be much of a restriction unless going for uber HP. Two things are probably happening: your motor is screaming for tuning (safc) and the cams are begging for more airflow. Get headwork done, port the IM's, and go from there. Motor modifications by themselves DO NOT make power, just like an MVP does not make a winning sports team. A well planned and integrated system of parts that are purchased and design toward a certain goal will work wonders together.

whats the latest White_N/A?

well its been awhile since this thread has seen life... a set of these cams have just come in to my hands and well after reading all i could about these cams in few posts and learning everything i could about long duration cams,
i will have to pick up were this thread left off. I dont have a dyno close by so it will take some time to get to one, i need to see a A/F reading before i start tuning.I see most people going n/a have a 13.5 ratio is that what i want?.can anyone tell me what would be a good direction to start, with cam gears, retard or advance the timing. i dont have a REAL ecu and may have a hard time getting one as i am Canadian and Real has stoped selling to canada because of the imoblizers.

Anyone, i know people out there know alot of info that would help me, im just begining any and all help would be great.

This thread is months old. Start a new thread with a clean, concise question and a topic to match.

i still wanna know what happened with white_n/a

i still wanna know what happened with white_n/a

i dont think he has the cams anymore

interesting