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post #1 of 22 Old 04-12-2017, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

I just purchased a non-running 1999 Tiburon FX (4 cylinder), which someone apparently swapped a 2005-ish G4GC engine into. I have confirmed that it has the original 1999 ECU, but a CVVT head. Needless to say the CVVT Valve isn't hooked up.

Car fires on Cylinders 3 and 4, but misses badly on cylinders 1 and 2. Confirmed all 4 have spark, wires, plugs look good. Car hard-starts, but will idle badly. Will run and drive without stalling, but cannot climb ANY hill, and is obviously continuously misfiring and smells of unburnt fuel.

Check engine codes:
"00335" - Crankshaft Position Sensor (sometimes)
"00340" - Cramshaft Position sensor (sometimes)
xxxxx - Random Misfire
xxxxx - Cylinder 1 Misfire
xxxxx - Cylinder 2 Misfire

I have tested the Camshaft position sensor, and find it tests good. I get 12V supply, 5V reference, and ground, on each of the three pins respectively. Operational voltage looks good, and testing the sensor with a magnet, I can properly vary the Hall sensor output.

I have tested the Crankshaft position sensor, AND HAVE QUESTIONS. This is another 3 pin Hall sensor, and I have good GND on one pin, but 1.46V steady on both other pins, with the sensor unplugged, and key-on. From the wiring diagrams, I believe this 1.46V is from the ECU directly on CKP A and CKP B pins? NOWHERE CAN I FIND THE RIGHT VOLTAGE IN THE MANUAL. Is 1.46V correct? Should both pins be putting out the exact same voltage? I have confirmed there is no continuity between the wires, so they aren't shorted. SHOULD I BE GETTING 12V and 5V on the CKP like the CMP? Thanks!
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post #2 of 22 Old 04-13-2017, 09:26 AM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

OH man...have you got issues.

1) With no way to control the VVT its going to stay in full retarded position all the time which will be TERRIBLE for power and economy. Your either going to have to come up with a way to control the CVVT or get non cvvt head out of a 01-03 Elantra or an 03 GK Tiburon.

2) The 96-01 Tiburon's used a reluctor type crankshaft sensor which does not have a power source and sends the signal over 2 of the 3 wires. The 3rd wire is a ground for the braided sheath. If they did not swap the original crank sensor onto the new block then that's your problem. Get a new crank sensor for your year and that should fix at least that part of the issue.

3) Hopefully the 99 Exhaust manifold and O2 sensors were swapped over on to the new block?
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

^^^What he said.

You need to swap all the sensors from the same year car. But, honestly you may want to just get a 97-01 low mileage engine. Or, even better, find an 02 Beta II non-cvvt engine and use the 97-01 sensors. Like he said, the crank sensors are different.

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post #4 of 22 Old 04-13-2017, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Thumbs up Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Ok, knowing that the ECU expects a magnetic reluctance intermittent signal, rather than a Hall signal helps! I have checked, and the crankshaft sensor is 1999 version. Will this sensor work on the Beta II block?

I will continue testing the crankshaft position sensor, assuming the signal from the ECU is as expected, and this is a magnetic sensor. I will report back with my findings.

As for the CVVT valve: Will the full retard position (default position?) be any different from the Beta I fixed valve timing position? Is it possible that leaving it at full retard will make it perform essentially like a Beta I/II non CVVT instead of a Beta II CVVT? If it is a big problem, I might develop some kind of circuit or board to control the CVVT activation (I have electrical engineering background). I wonder what the best conditional test would be to adjust the valve? Vacuum reading? RPM? Both?

Thanks guys!

EDIT: I will check out the exhaust as well, not sure, and not with the car ATM.
EDIT2: I found this image, indicating I was correct, and Vacuum and RPM are the two inputs for the OCV in the CVVT. s253.photobucket.com/user/maral01/media/CVVT.jpg.html <--cannot post link because below 5 posts...

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post #5 of 22 Old 04-13-2017, 02:42 PM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

The mag crank sensor should work find in the beta 2 block provided there isn't something wrong with the sensor and/or wiring. How did you figure out it was the 99 sensor?

If your skilled with electronics it shouldn't be that big of a deal to rig up system to open up the valve at a certain TPS or RPM level. Most decent piggyback ECUs have a programmeable output that can be used for this as well.

With the cam in full retard it will run worse than any beta based engine out there.

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post #6 of 22 Old 04-13-2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

The 1999-era sensor has a pigtail, but the later ones don't, at least from parts listings I can see online. I will test the sensor with a magnet tonight, and see if it responds. With a magnetic one, it will produce a voltage itself (does not depend on a supplied voltage), in response to proximity to a magnet. As the magnet gets closer, higher voltage output. If the sensor doesn't respond at all, I know its the wrong one. Also, once I am home, I can check its model number, which is hopefully legible and written on it.
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post #7 of 22 Old 04-13-2017, 02:52 PM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Hyundai messed around with various crank sensor styles for the 2.0l. Some have a pig tail and some don't. In general though the earlier Tibs came with a pig tail and the GK 2.0l didn't. I'd take a look at the condition in general of the sensor.

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post #8 of 22 Old 04-14-2017, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

I checked out the sensor, and it appears to be fine. It is indeed the 1999 style from the original engine. It had "2410 1510" on it, which I cannot find anywhere online as a part number, but the construction style, the fact that the sensor itself is magnetic, and the voltage output it reads all confirm it is a reluctor style sensor.

I conducted some more poking around, and found the following: The crankshaft position sensor code is rarely thrown, and perhaps is in response to the car running very poorly? Everytime I start the car, I get Camshaft Position Sensor P00342 (Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Low), and misfire codes for cylinder 1, 2, and "multiple cylinder misfire" codes.

Based on the above condition, and ignoring the crankshaft sensor for the moment, why would it ALWAYS misfire on ONLY 1 and 2, never 3 and 4? I have pulled the plugs in the past and confirmed they are all getting spark, plugs look OK, though 1 and 2 are fuel wet. Could it be that the cam timing is different on Beta I vs Beta II, and the ECU isn't handling it? Would a weak signal from the cam sensor ONLY affect firing on 1 and 2?

Unplugging the cam sensor has the car running exactly the same as before. Maybe this means the ECU isn't getting the signal? I know the sensor is good, and gets good voltage (12V and 5V reference, and the 5V reference drops to a 2-3V signal when running), and the voltages are good all the way through the connector into the wiring harness. Maybe I need to test the signal voltage at the ECU pin, to confirm it is still 2-3V?

I also investigated the CVVT valve, just to confirm it wasn't stuck open. When I removed it, it fell apart into two parts, the solenoid and the valve body. As an experiment, I removed the plunger, and reinstalled it. Now both the retard and advance sides of the CVVT system are equally presurized. Car ran exactly the same. I doubt the CVVT system is an issue for basic running/idling/the problem I am having now, but when/if this car is running down the road, I will revisit the CVVT system for power and efficiency.

In short, does the misfire only being on 1 and 2 mean something? Seems like a strange thing, and something I will think about.

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post #9 of 22 Old 04-14-2017, 09:15 AM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

How many ignition coils do you have? If 2, is one shared between cyl 1 & 2? If yes, then swap coils and see if the issue follows.
If it does, it's a failing coil.
If it doesn't it could be coil input wiring.

Figure out what is common between the two cylinders, ignition, intake manifold leak, etc.
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post #10 of 22 Old 04-14-2017, 09:34 AM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Yeah check the condition of the coil pack as well. Previous owner would not have been able to use the coil pack from the CVVT engine as the connectors are different and the old 99 coil pack might be in need of replacement due to crack connectors underneath.

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post #11 of 22 Old 04-14-2017, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

The coils are like this, and are split 3/2 and 1/4 respectively.

i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XCoAAOSwA3dYVVnY/s-l300.jpg

Thanks for the suggestion, I will investigate further about the 1/2 correlation and the ignition coil. Perhaps even though the 1/2 cylinders are getting spark, it isn't strong enough, or intermittent?

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post #12 of 22 Old 04-14-2017, 09:42 AM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

It could be any of those issues. High miles tends to cook the connectors and wires underneath and they start to split and crack creating connectivity issues.

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post #13 of 22 Old 04-15-2017, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

I checked the coils, and found good resistance values, as per the service manual (12Kohms between the 1 and 4, and 2 and 3 coils respectively). The 3 pin connector tested fine as well, with 0.5 Ohms between pin 3 and 2, and 3 and 1 each. Inspection of the coil shows that it is in excellent shape, and likely was replaced at some point.

My next step is going to observe the signal waveforms from the cramshaft and crankshaft position sensors, and see if the waveforms looks acceptable. I have found some good information about testing the waveforms, and expected behavior online. I just have to drag my laptop and oscilloscope out the garage and find a few minutes. Maybe tomorrow. Ended up fixing the ole mower so I could mow today instead. Say tuned!
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post #14 of 22 Old 04-15-2017, 10:21 PM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

I believe you should be seeing square waveforms, goes from 0VDC to 5(?)VDC, basically a digital signal.

Because of the cylinder/coil split, I think you can stop working on them. The output terminals are typically tied together, so they both work or they don't.
If you want to test it, swap the 2 wires on a single coil and see if the same cylinder has an issue.

I still think it's worth looking for an intake leak between cylinders 1 & 2, spray carb cleaner around the intake manifold (at gasket joints) with the engine running. If there is a leak, the engine RPM's will rise.

Also make sure the ground from the engine to the firewall is clean and tight, not sitting on a painted surface.
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post #15 of 22 Old 04-17-2017, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Thanks for the great suggestions. I will check out the intake and the firewall grounds tonight. I think I will also perform a compression test to ensure that 1 and 2 aren't just dead cylinders.
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post #16 of 22 Old 04-18-2017, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

I did a few things:

-removed and cleaned up the ground at the battery, which connect to the wiring harness, battery, and body. Lowered resistance between body and engine from 28Ohms to 13.7Ohms.
-pulled the plugs, and confirmed they are fine, and swapped them from the misfiring cylinders to the good ones -> same behavior
-compression test came back around 130 on all cylinders, cold. This seems OK
-tested the spark leads, they all came in between 5.2KOhms and 3.7KOhms.
-swapped 1/4 and 2/3 leads to the other side of each coil -> ran exactly the same, and misfired on the same cylinders
-sprayed starting fluid all around the intake, top and bottom, and the vacuum lines, and could not get any response out of the engine, so likely the intake gasket is good

Is there a ground to the firewall from the engine? I could not find any such thing, the only ground I could find was the one mentioned above.

I am still getting the pending camshaft sensor low code each time I run the car, even before it logs the misfire codes moments later. I think my next test will be checking the camshaft position sensor voltage just before the ECU, on that pin. If it is not 2.5-3.5V as I am seeing at the sensor in the engine bay, that could be a cause. Alternatively, is it possible that the Beta II cam isn't triggering the Beta I sensor properly? Could the timing/alignment/sensor position be different on the cams, and provide unexpected timing/low response from the sensor, which is tripping up the ecu? I hope the engines are so similar that this isn't a concern.
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post #17 of 22 Old 04-18-2017, 09:42 AM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Quote:
Originally Posted by drweird View Post
Is there a ground to the firewall from the engine? I could not find any such thing, the only ground I could find was the one mentioned above.
Not sure about a '99 tib, but on GK tibs and XD elantras there's one from the top left of the UIM to the firewall.
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post #18 of 22 Old 04-18-2017, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Consulting the electrical manual I found online for the 1999 generation Tiburon, looks like the only other engine bay ground is below the right headlight, maybe on the radiator mount? Hard to tell from the picture, but should be easy to find once I go looking for it.

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/coupe/ser...cation/g05.jpg
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post #19 of 22 Old 04-20-2017, 09:45 AM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

Not sure where you're at in this, but I'm installing a new haltech and in my research I found that not only are the crank sensors different between beta 1 and 2, but they both have the same style hall effect cam sensors EXCEPT for the fact that the wiring is reversed between pins 1 & 3. Pin 2 is still the signal. I believe this is due to having mirrored Bosch 3-wire connectors.

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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

JonGTR:
I have confirmed I have the Beta I style Crank Sensor, running on the original 1999 ECU. I think the sensor and ECU combination is good. My current concern is whether the magnet on the cam and crankshafts are in the same position on my Beta II, as on the Beta I. If they are, the ECU should work? But if they are not, I am concerned the sensors are sending good signals, but the ECU will interpret them wrongly?
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post #21 of 22 Old 04-20-2017, 03:20 PM
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

As far as I remember there isn't any magnets on the crank just 58 'teeth' and a gap that the sensor mag picks up.

Could it be that the issue is your cam sensor? If you not using the right beta 1 cam sensor then like Jon said the wires may be reversed and can cause issues that may show up as crank sensor codes.

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post #22 of 22 Old 04-21-2017, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Camshaft and Crankshaft Position Sensors

I will attempt to verify that my sensors are the correct ones. I am pretty certain they are, but without model numbers on the sensor bodies, it is hard to be sure. This weekend I am going to a "pull all you can carry" event at a pick n pull, and will be gathering things off a couple of 1999-2001 Tiburons, and maybe the same generation Elantra engines, if necessary. Also getting unrelated parts like window regulators, switches, minor interior parts, that the car also needs. Once I have (hopefully) another crank sensor from one of these cars, I will pop it on mine, and see how it performs.
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