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#1 Old 12-24-2007, 04:07 PM
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Dual mass flywheel

what is a dual mass flywheel? fidanza has a 9.5 lb flywheel but it is dual mass and i have no idea that means. any help?


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#2 Old 12-24-2007, 04:13 PM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

dual mass is basically 2 masses with springs in between to help dampen vibration... they are tuned to the car's performance (most of the time) helping provide a pleasant driving experience, but at the expense of performance. single mass is lighter (for obvious reasons) and therefore is alot more reliable at extreme performance levels. (extreme as in high over stock).

If i remember correctly the stock flywheel is like 25-30 lbs.

oh, im not sure, but does the tib's flywheel have an over torque friction surface? as in instead of damaging the springs.. it will just slip, another problem with the clutch burning up.. not sure if it does or not, but i know some do.


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#3 Old 12-24-2007, 08:02 PM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

would it be better to go with a solid flywheel since most clutch disc come spring loaded.


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#4 Old 12-25-2007, 11:00 AM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenglass187 View Post
what is a dual mass flywheel? fidanza has a 9.5 lb flywheel but it is dual mass and i have no idea that means. any help?
where do you see a dual mass app for the tib? the aftermarket ones are single mass, which is why they are a touch noisier.
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#5 Old 12-25-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

i spoke before reading into this. the 9.5 is a solid flywheel and the dual mass ones were O.E.M sorry for any confusing


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#6 Old 12-25-2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

Isn't NGM working on one? I'm pretty sure they are testing it right now. So basically this dual mass kit NGM is working on would work as stock(noise, feeling, etc) yet be able to handle the high horsepower?
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#7 Old 12-25-2007, 10:26 PM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

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Originally Posted by dhluke View Post
Isn't NGM working on one? I'm pretty sure they are testing it right now. So basically this dual mass kit NGM is working on would work as stock(noise, feeling, etc) yet be able to handle the high horsepower?
no no no, it is a twin disc clutch that they are working on... it has its own single mass flywheel that is specific to the clutch so that there is room to stuff the twin disc in. it will be able to handle tons of power, but it will be anything but stock... it will be way lighter etc etc than stock so you are talking about something completely different
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#8 Old 12-26-2007, 05:24 AM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

Ohh I see - Thanks for clearing it for me!
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#9 Old 12-26-2007, 08:40 AM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

Here's some more info for those of you unfamiliar with the "dual-mass flywheel" and why it needs to be replaced when you replace the clutch. I found this while doing some research myself, trying to determine if I wanted to replace mine or not. The dual-mass flywheels are freakin mad expensive, so for the same (or LESS) cost, you can get an upgraded clutch AND a lightweight flywheel. (What a difference!)

Thanks, Derek (only1db) for recommending that while we had mine torn apart.

Here's the flywheel info. I bolded the important parts regarding R&R.
______________________


DUAL MASS FLYWHEEL/CLUTCH REPLACEMENT OPTIONS

October 01, 2005
By Larry Carley
Technical Editor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dual mass flywheels - a unique kind of flywheel - have been used on a variety of pickup truck and passenger car applications since the late 1980s. You'll find them on 1987 Ford F-Series 6.9L diesels, 1992-96 Chevy 6.5L diesel trucks and 1992-02 Chevy 8.5L diesel trucks. Dual mass flywheels have also been used on some passenger car applications such as 1989 through 1996 vintage LT5 Corvettes, a variety of BMW, Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen models, plus some Hyundai and Nissan applications.

A dual mass flywheel is essentially two flywheels in one that provides some spring cushioning to dampen torsional crankshaft vibrations and shock loading when the clutch is engaged. Think of it as a flywheel with some "give." In others, a solid disc is utilized and the dual mass flywheel provides all the dampening.

The two-piece assembly has a front "primary" flywheel and a rear "secondary" flywheel. The primary flywheel bolts to the crankshaft just like an ordinary solid flywheel, and has the ring gear for the starter. The clutch is bolted to the secondary flywheel, which is separate from the primary flywheel but attached to it with a series of coil springs mounted sideways between the two flywheels. The springs allow just enough movement between the flywheels to dampen the power strokes from a diesel engine so the vibrations are not felt throughout the drivetrain when the clutch is engaged. The cushioning effect also reduces shock loading on the transmission for longer gear life and less noise.

On gasoline-powered passenger car applications, a dual mass flywheel can provide the same kind of drivetrain cushioning and dampening for a smoother, quieter ride. A dual mass flywheel also helps smooth clutch engagement in vehicles with high torque output engines. It's sort of like relocating the springs from the hub in the clutch disk further out so they can handle greater loads. Splitting the mass of the flywheel also reduces the rotating mass of the clutch assembly when shifts are made for smoother gear changes and reduced drivetrain noise.

Some dual mass flywheels use a slightly different design to achieve essentially the same end. Instead of relying solely on springs between the two flywheels to dampen vibrations and shock loading, a planetary gear set is used to control the motions between the primary and secondary flywheels.

DUAL MASS PROBLEMS
Despite the functional advantages that dual mass flywheels have over conventional one-piece solid flywheels, some dual mass flywheels have proved to be troublesome and prone to premature failure. The dual mass flywheels in early Ford 6.9L F-Series diesel trucks have experienced a high rate of failure because of a weak spring design in the OEM flywheel. Spring fatigue and failure causes the flywheel to make a rattling or clunking noise when the clutch is engaged. Depressing the clutch pedal may cause the noise to go away. Debris from broken springs can also become trapped between the back of the flywheel and engine causing damage to the rear main oil seal housing and oil pan.

FLYWHEEL MOAN
Another problem that has been reported is a vibration/moaning condition on some 1996-97 Ford F-250 and F-350 trucks with the 7.3L diesel engine and dual mass flywheel. Ford technical service bulletin #03-21-19 describes a moaning or vibration that can be heard or felt between 2,600 and 3,000 rpm. According to Ford, the cause is an imbalance between the engine, flywheel and clutch. The fix for this condition involves adding a stack of washers to one or more of the clutch cover bolts to change the balance of the rotating assembly. The idea is to add weight at various locations around the cover until the vibration goes away.

OTHER CAUSES OF FLYWHEEL FAILURES
Premature failure of a dual mass flywheel can be caused by a variety of things other than normal wear and tear. The flywheel is engineered to handle a specific load, so if the engine has been modified to produce more power (turning up the boost pressure, for example), or adding a turbocharger or supercharger to a naturally aspirated engine, or nitrous oxide, the engine may produce more torque than the stock dual mass flywheel can handle.

Overloading the drivetrain by pulling more weight than the vehicle's maximum towing or hauling capacity can also overtax a dual mass flywheel and lead to premature failure.

On diesel applications, anything that causes the engine to run roughly (bad fuel injectors, improper injector timing, loss of compression in a cylinder, etc.) may produce enough vibration to cause premature failure of the damper springs or nylon spacers inside a dual mass flywheel.

If a clutch starts to slip at low mileage, the problem may be a worn or defective "friction ring" between the primary and secondary flywheels. The friction ring allows the secondary flywheel to slip when torque loads are too high (to protect the transmission). The friction ring can wear out if excessive torque loads are continuously applied (as when overloading a vehicle and exceeding its rated hauling or towing capacity).

To check for a worn slip ring, block the engine so it cannot turn and partially insert two long bolts in the bolt holes on opposite sides of the clutch cover. Insert a pry bar between the bolts and try to rotate the secondary flywheel with respect to the primary flywheel. Most dual mass flywheels will have about 8 to 11 degrees of free rotational movement before the friction ring engages. If the secondary flywheel rotates with hand pressure, the ring is slipping and the flywheel needs to be replaced.

REPAIR OPTIONS
Even if a dual mass flywheel does not experience a spring failure, the service life of most OEM dual mass flywheels is typically about the same as the clutch, which means the flywheel usually needs to be replaced when the clutch wears out. If you simply bolt in a new clutch, chances are your customer will have flywheel problems at some point down the road because of the weakened springs in the flywheel. That's why many experts recommend replacing a dual mass flywheel when changing a clutch - especially if the flywheel has more than 80,000 or 90,000 miles on it. The flywheel should be considered a wear item just like the clutch, and should be replaced when a new clutch is installed.

Surface wear is another reason for replacement. The friction surface of a dual mass flywheel will wear the same as an ordinary flywheel as a result of normal clutch operation. The clutch surface may become rough, grooved or develop cracks or hard spots. Minor scoring and grooving is acceptable, but if the surface has hard spots, is warped or cracked, the flywheel must be replaced.

Resurfacing a dual mass flywheel with a rough or grooved surface is usually out of the question because of the two-piece design of the flywheel. To resurface a dual mass flywheel, the unit would have to be taken apart so the secondary flywheel could be remachined. The unit would then have to be "rebuilt" with new springs and reassembled with the same tolerances as before to work properly. Most of these units are not designed to be disassembled or serviced by technicians, so replacement is recommended if the unit shows a lot of wear or is making noise.

Dual mass flywheels are very expensive to replace. The list price for the flywheel alone is typically $800 to $1100. Add in a couple hundred bucks for a new clutch and clutch disk, plus labor to replace all the parts and you end up with a sizable repair bill.

A more affordable alternative is to replace the OEM dual mass flywheel with an aftermarket one-piece solid flywheel (which also requires a different clutch and clutch disk). In most cases, you can get a new flywheel and clutch for hundreds less than what it would cost to replace a dual mass flywheel itself.

When the one-piece solid flywheel replacement kits were first introduced for the early Ford and GM dual mass flywheel applications, some people said the kits would cause more problems than they solved. They said a solid flywheel would not provide enough dampening to protect the gears in the transmission from shock loading and would cause the transmission to fail. It never happened. By using a slightly larger clutch (13 inch as opposed to a 11 or 12 inch clutch in the stock dual mass flywheel) with redesigned hub springs in the clutch disk, the solid flywheel replacement kits proved to work just fine in these applications and caused no harm to the transmission.

For racing and high-performance applications, similar kits have been developed for Corvette, Porsche and BMW applications. These are mostly solid one-piece flywheels with stronger clutches and high performance or ceramic clutch disks, but there are some lightweight racing dual mass flywheels for BWM and Porsche.






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#10 Old 12-26-2007, 10:39 AM
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Re: Dual mass flywheel

i have a spec stg2 clutch that i've had in there since 42k i'm on 99k right now and i still have the dual mass flywheel in there i had it resurfaced at the time of install still grabs great but it does grind a little on take off everyonce in a great while


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