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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-07-2019 05:34 AM
kellydood
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdicks View Post
I don't recall if you mentioned it before but what was the original reflash programmed for and was it programmed on your car and where it lives? A tune done on a car in Florida or Texas or wherever TC was at the time can react differently say on a car in Minnesota.. <img src="https://www.newtiburon.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
It was one of those kits he sold with the huge fenderwell intake, MAF, throttle body, and reflash. I got it as NOS, along with a NOS intake and 'Assassin' s/c.

By the time I got around to putting it all together, TC was long gone. I ended up pulling up info on the test car for that tune on the Wayback Machine, and came up with what I thought the blower speed was. The thing it, my car is currently turning the blower a lot harder than the car the tune was worked up on, but it's closer than it ever has been.

The tune was done in Florida, and I think my elevation is about 1000 feet higher here.
09-06-2019 01:24 PM
dmdicks
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

I don't recall if you mentioned it before but what was the original reflash programmed for and was it programmed on your car and where it lives? A tune done on a car in Florida or Texas or wherever TC was at the time can react differently say on a car in Minnesota..
09-05-2019 09:07 PM
kellydood Quick update: bumped the boost up to 19, it's actually running a lot better. AFR is still in the 10s at WOT, but it's not stumbling and massively over fueling like it used to. I might run it down and make a few passes with it this fall, just to see what it does. I'm putting a MS3 PRO in it this winter. Bye bye tuning issues!
08-02-2019 10:41 PM
kellydood
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdicks View Post
He was probably trying the O2 Sims in an attempt to trick the ECU into thinking it still had the cat convertors installed. The ECU monitors the voltage sweep on the secondary O2 sensors and compares that sweep to the primaries to determine if the catalyst is still functioning as expected. If it finds things out of whack it will retard timing and add fuel in attempts to clean up things. Was really only a problem with 05+ ECUs. 03-04 were a lot less stringent.

Chances are the trickery didn't work and he found the flag that disables the secondary O2 monitoring.

As far as the knock sensors being triggered by the blower, I guess its possible, but chances are the ECU was actually seeing real detonation. Part of the reflash should've included adjusting the knock sensitivity to account for false knock frequencies. I'm guessing he didn't want to or didn't know how to mess with that so he just turned them off and used meth injection to keep it from detonating.
Makes sense on the O2 simulators. I've never had a converter code on my car, and it's been catless since 2004. He had me test those simulators in about 2006, so he was probably starting to run into issues on the '05 cars.

Rear O2 simulators are a thing on other platforms, both the defouler and the electronic variety. I successfully ran defoulers on my nitrous 2003 Crown Vic.

I know the small block Chevy guys were having issues with noisy cam gear drives tripping knock sensors. Who knows if that's what TC was talking about, or if he actually saw it happen on one of his builds. I plan to put it on the dyno and see for myself what happens. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if TC turned off knock retard altogether. He certainly did dumber things.
07-24-2019 10:15 AM
dmdicks
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

He was probably trying the O2 Sims in an attempt to trick the ECU into thinking it still had the cat convertors installed. The ECU monitors the voltage sweep on the secondary O2 sensors and compares that sweep to the primaries to determine if the catalyst is still functioning as expected. If it finds things out of whack it will retard timing and add fuel in attempts to clean up things. Was really only a problem with 05+ ECUs. 03-04 were a lot less stringent.

Chances are the trickery didn't work and he found the flag that disables the secondary O2 monitoring.

As far as the knock sensors being triggered by the blower, I guess its possible, but chances are the ECU was actually seeing real detonation. Part of the reflash should've included adjusting the knock sensitivity to account for false knock frequencies. I'm guessing he didn't want to or didn't know how to mess with that so he just turned them off and used meth injection to keep it from detonating.
07-24-2019 01:44 AM
kellydood I'll check the TPS ref voltage if it acts up again, but I'm still in good shape as of right now. I think what may have happened is some alcohol seeped down the throttle shaft into the TPS and goofed it up. It was pretty apparent what was wrong once the car started idling at 1500, my AFC showed 49% throttle at cruise, and AFRs dipped into the 10s LOL.

I never thought to look at LTFTs, but that's an idea. My guess is that TC disabled them completely. He had me test some rear O2 simulator module once, because he thought the ECU was somehow utilizing them to learn its way around the piggyback tuners in open loop. The module shorted out and blew fuses. Good times.

I'm not surprised to hear he shut off knock sensing. He had a theory that the blowers were triggering knock retard. I think that was why he got away from the Safeguards. John at J&S said there's no way this could happen. The only way to know for sure is to look at it on the dyno, I guess.

TC did other stupid stuff, like triggering the cooling fans at 170 degrees. Seriously, I don't know what he was thinking with that one. He was clearly not a tuner.

When I saw those STFT numbers, I pretty much gave up on it, but the TPS issue makes me want to take a second look and at least confirm what it's doing.

Thanks for the tip on that 6.5 ring. I don't follow any of the TN groups on FB but I'll shoot Patrick a PM. I just wanted to play around with blower speed a little and see what happens.
07-23-2019 08:24 AM
dmdicks
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

A guy name Patrick that goes by muffassa51 on this board has a few of those rings laying around. He's got a few of everything laying around lol. If your on any of the Tuscani Nation FB pages he's on there as well. His name is Patrick Neil Heisler. Good guy for sure.

Double check the power line to the TPS. If the voltage reference is wonky then the TPS voltage will be wonky. Either way nice find as those can be difficult to troubleshoot.

As for the reflash. It almost sounds like he disabled short term trims all together. Does the long term trims change? +31 means the ECU is really trying to add a crap ton of fuel and not succeeding. It does sound like he turned off certain CEL codes, which ain't good. I've heard horror stories of people having knock sensors turned off and O2 sensors disabled.
07-22-2019 10:33 PM
kellydood That sounds like a really good time. That's what I had hoped to do with mine someday, hence the huge intercooler.

Found a bad TPS yesterday. Everything was fine, then suddenly it's registering around 50% throttle at cruise and over fueling like crazy. Removed the old one and some liquid seeped out of it. Driveability is better and AFRs look a little better, although not ideal. I'm going to take another look at the fuel trims tomorrow on my way home from work.

TC must have tuned it to trim like crazy in closed loop, and disabled the fault mode. I was seeing as much as +31% STFTs in places, but I never got the accompanying fault code. Also, I tried correcting it by adding a little fuel with the AFC, but the trims never change (although it gets richer). What the hell? That's why I'm afraid it can't be cleaned up.

I had the whole NGM modular crank pulley set, but my 6.5" ring is missing. Probably never see one of those again.
07-22-2019 07:06 AM
dmdicks
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

Yup, it will be 100% electric. Figure I can use it as a protective measure as well. For example if my intercooler pump fails and my IATs get too high I can have the Elite pop open the bypass valve to limit boost. I do a lot of road race track days and HPDE Training sessions that are 20-25 minute sessions at a time. Road Racing for 25 min straight is HARD on your car so I have to make sure everything is in top notch condition and I have the appropriate safe guards in place.

With the Elite you can use any sensor you want, but most go with a tried and true GM IAT sensor. I have one in my lower manifold on the #6 runner.
07-20-2019 10:42 PM
kellydood Sounds like a pretty sweet setup. I'll definitely look into the 2500. It'll be good to get a real tune.

What are you guys using for IAT sensors? Just drilling/tapping the lower IM someplace?

I was just going to use the stock bypass canister with one of those electric boost control solenoids. You're getting rid of the vacuum canister altogether?
07-20-2019 07:30 AM
dmdicks You gotta have that IAT after the blower. The ecu will retard timing based on temp and save your bacon. I run the Elite 2500 with a flex fuel sensor tuned to anywhere from 0 to 85% Ethanol. Im running 10.5 psi at 7300 rpm with no meth injection. I have maps for my car and a friends RIPP powered car. I ran this on a stock motor with no issues. Im now built with 12.5:1 compression.
Im working on using an electric wastegate from a new civic to actuate the bypass valve on command. I think it will work pretty well to control boost level. &#x1f601;
07-19-2019 09:36 PM
Rushking19
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellydood View Post
Hmm, to answer your questions, the IAT sensor is in the intake tube, and the TPS sweep has been verified. The 90mm NGM TB uses an OE TPS. I agree that the IAT sensor should be downstream of the SC, but I put it all together the way it was tuned to run. It actually runs pretty good in closed loop, and higher throttle positions are good although way too rich. Boost bypass valve is pinned 100% closed for now.

It's been probably a decade since I talked to John at J&S, so I wouldn't be able to answer your question. I plan to reach out to him again soon.

Which Haltech unit are you running? I probably will end up going that route. I want to set up boost control on this thing because I need launch control and boost by speed. The car's built for 400 whp and I have the pulleys for 23 psi. I will definitely crank it up there once I have the ability to tune it. There's some issues with belt slippage at that blower speed, but I know I can sort them out. I did run it up there one time, and fattened up the AFR by cranking up the FP. It was wild and just wanted to blow the tires off below about 50, so definitely looking to pull back the boost electronically at slower speeds.

Thanks for your offer of help. I may take you up on that sometime. I plan to start investigating standalone options and tuning this summer and fall. You have a 6 cylinder base map?
Put the iat sensor after the blower so it can save you from blowing or tuning issues
07-19-2019 09:00 PM
kellydood Hmm, to answer your questions, the IAT sensor is in the intake tube, and the TPS sweep has been verified. The 90mm NGM TB uses an OE TPS. I agree that the IAT sensor should be downstream of the SC, but I put it all together the way it was tuned to run. It actually runs pretty good in closed loop, and higher throttle positions are good although way too rich. Boost bypass valve is pinned 100% closed for now.

It's been probably a decade since I talked to John at J&S, so I wouldn't be able to answer your question. I plan to reach out to him again soon.

Which Haltech unit are you running? I probably will end up going that route. I want to set up boost control on this thing because I need launch control and boost by speed. The car's built for 400 whp and I have the pulleys for 23 psi. I will definitely crank it up there once I have the ability to tune it. There's some issues with belt slippage at that blower speed, but I know I can sort them out. I did run it up there one time, and fattened up the AFR by cranking up the FP. It was wild and just wanted to blow the tires off below about 50, so definitely looking to pull back the boost electronically at slower speeds.

Thanks for your offer of help. I may take you up on that sometime. I plan to start investigating standalone options and tuning this summer and fall. You have a 6 cylinder base map?
07-18-2019 07:36 AM
dmdicks
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

Where's your intake temp sensor at? It's location can vastly impact your AFR and Timing maps as well. I'm hoping you have it after the after cooler in the lower intake manifold? If its before the blower then that's no bueno.

Have you verified the TPS voltage sweep on that massive BBTB? It's also possible the TPS sensor isn't calibrated right or faulty telling the ECU you have more or less throttle than you really have.

Another thing I'd check is to make sure your bypass valve is working the way it should. When I got my used sniper kit the bypass valve was not properly adjusted so the butterfly was not closing or opening 100%. That can lead to weird issues as well.

Sorry, I don't think anyone is actually flashing GK ECUs anymore. The market was and is just not strong enough for people to keep doing it. Last person I heard of doing it was BTR aka BloodTypeRacing. They don't even list the Tiburon on their site anymore, but might be worth giving them a call?

Was reading up on the Safeguard and have a few questions. How can it retarding timing on individual cylinders in a wasted spark ignition system? Also it looks like its only got one knock sensor input? How can that accurately distinguish between banks?

Personally I'd feel safer relying on the stock knock detection system. The Haltech Elite utilizes both stock sensors and once the frequency and sensitivity are set up correctly its proven pretty flawless. It also will retard timing and then put it back when the knock is gone.

If you do go standalone and get a Haltech Elite I can definitely help you get it set up. Boomslang offers an adapter that makes installation a breeze and I've got several pretty damn good base maps you can use.
07-17-2019 10:23 PM
kellydood
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdicks View Post
Ive had a lot of experience in trying to make the stock ecu happy under boost. A reflashed ecu should already be happy but unless it was tuned on your car its a crap shoot. Im guessing NGM tuned the ecu to go into open loop as soon as it sees a maf voltage that correlates to a flow value equal to zero psi. I bet he did this so the ecu switches to less agressive timing maps as well as stops the ecu from trying to reach stoich afr. Throw in meth injection that is not ecu controlled and your afr control is garbage. Meth is also a band aid for a ineffective cooling system.
The J&S system is decent but designed for older ecus with sluggish knock retard. I have a feeling NGM didn't mess with optimizing timing and knock sensitivity so his solution was use the safe guard. Does the safeguard rely on its own knock sensors?
Yes the J&S has its own KS. I had a long talk with the guy who engineered them once. When it's set up properly, it'll pull timing on individual cylinders when it senses light knock, then put it back once it goes away. It's not supposed cost any power. That's the function I'll utilize. I also have the dash mounted display which is really nice.

So as it stands right now, I'm dumping fuel on tip in, the WOT AFR is in the 10s up til around 5k, it leans to about 12.2, then dips back down to 10.2 at 7,000. So, it's costing me some power, but it's not as lean as I previously thought.

My after cooler is totally overbuilt, and my upper IM stays just warm to the touch even after multiple pulls, so I'm good there.

I tried a little datalogging today. My fuel trims are all over the place, and the ECU does not behave how I expect it to. I suspect that's due to the goofed up tune, and it probably won't be cleaned up with a piggyback tuner.

Do you know of anyone in my region doing custom reflashes on these? The local Hyundai club has a guy come out who does ECU tuning, but he doesn't do GKs.

Otherwise, it's looking like a standalone is in order.
07-17-2019 05:17 PM
dmdicks Ive had a lot of experience in trying to make the stock ecu happy under boost. A reflashed ecu should already be happy but unless it was tuned on your car its a crap shoot. Im guessing NGM tuned the ecu to go into open loop as soon as it sees a maf voltage that correlates to a flow value equal to zero psi. I bet he did this so the ecu switches to less agressive timing maps as well as stops the ecu from trying to reach stoich afr. Throw in meth injection that is not ecu controlled and your afr control is garbage. Meth is also a band aid for a ineffective cooling system.
The J&S system is decent but designed for older ecus with sluggish knock retard. I have a feeling NGM didn't mess with optimizing timing and knock sensitivity so his solution was use the safe guard. Does the safeguard rely on its own knock sensors?
07-17-2019 02:46 PM
kellydood
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdicks View Post
The problem is you've got some many band aid "fixes" trying to get a reflashed stock ECU to handle all the mods you've done. I'll start with some of the obvious issues I see:

1) Your running a much larger intake pipe with I'm guessing some of recalibrated/hacked MAF sensor that can measure the flow of 17+ psi. The problem with that is that the stock ECU even in reflashed form was designed for a certain voltage to flow range. Putting a larger MAF means adjusting the rang to fit the needed higher flow rate. So say the stock ECU has a max capability of 16 MAF load cells that correlate to certain flow rates. This may work great for a NA set up but now you've added 17psi of positive pressure in the mix. The problem arises when you need a MUCH broader range of load vs volt load cells but your capped at the max 16 the ECU can support. This can leave you with pretty large gaps in the tune in the low to mid throttle range depending on how the scale was tweaked. NGM tuned most of his reflashes for WOT running without much care taken with the other load areas of a map.

2) You mention using the J&S safeguard. Again this is a band aid fix for improper tuning. A proper reflash would've accounted for all the load variables and adjusted timing accordingly. The Hyundai ECU doesn't like to have its timing externally messed with so this could be causing issues as well.

3) You mention the NEO being installed. Yet another band aid variable added to the mix. NEO's are "OK" with low boost setups where you don't have to pull too much MAF voltage out to tune in slightly larger injectors. Are you trying to use the NEO to help clean up a poor reflash or you trying to go above what the reflash was intended for?

4) You mention you have a AEM wideband. Is it only one wideband? With my Haltech Elite I've seen tune variances between banks of up to +/- 15%. with only one wideband you would have no way to know if a particular bank is running lean. Not a good idea.

5) Ask yourself this question. If all the money you've invested thus far worth limping along with bandaid fixes that could potentially destroy your very expensive motor?
Yes, the car has a 4" intake and Pro MAF on it. NGM called it the big air kit or big induction kit, can't remember. We can all agree that TC wasn't a good tuner and that the reflashes were half ass. There's no way to know exactly what he did, other than it drops into open loop at around 20% throttle and dumps fuel.

It sounds like you have some experience with tuning the factory ECU? I don't, although I do understand the concepts and terminology from my auto technician days. I did fix one that was glitching out due to improper MAF voltage. I saw other people on the boards complaining of the same issue I was having, which makes me think there were more widespread issues with ECU tuning than we were lead to believe.

As of right now, fuel pressure is at factory spec, and the Neo and J&S are zeroed out. It's not that I've been limping along the car as much as it's just been stored for many years. I'm just looking at the way forward. I could possibly utilize the Neo to clean up the fuel curve a little, although as you say, it's a total bandaid. It's a remnant of my Alpine / 290cc injector days.

Have you had a chance to play around with a J&S at all? I'm just wondering where you developed your 'bandaid' opinion of that unit? It's got some capabilities that I'm hoping to utilize, even after I go standalone.

It's interesting that you bring up the banks differing. There are ways to tell without a wideband on each bank, although it's not ideal. I will look into this.

You bring up some valid points. Thanks for weighing in.
07-17-2019 01:31 PM
dmdicks
Re: NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

The problem is you've got some many band aid "fixes" trying to get a reflashed stock ECU to handle all the mods you've done. I'll start with some of the obvious issues I see:

1) Your running a much larger intake pipe with I'm guessing some of recalibrated/hacked MAF sensor that can measure the flow of 17+ psi. The problem with that is that the stock ECU even in reflashed form was designed for a certain voltage to flow range. Putting a larger MAF means adjusting the rang to fit the needed higher flow rate. So say the stock ECU has a max capability of 16 MAF load cells that correlate to certain flow rates. This may work great for a NA set up but now you've added 17psi of positive pressure in the mix. The problem arises when you need a MUCH broader range of load vs volt load cells but your capped at the max 16 the ECU can support. This can leave you with pretty large gaps in the tune in the low to mid throttle range depending on how the scale was tweaked. NGM tuned most of his reflashes for WOT running without much care taken with the other load areas of a map.

2) You mention using the J&S safeguard. Again this is a band aid fix for improper tuning. A proper reflash would've accounted for all the load variables and adjusted timing accordingly. The Hyundai ECU doesn't like to have its timing externally messed with so this could be causing issues as well.

3) You mention the NEO being installed. Yet another band aid variable added to the mix. NEO's are "OK" with low boost setups where you don't have to pull too much MAF voltage out to tune in slightly larger injectors. Are you trying to use the NEO to help clean up a poor reflash or you trying to go above what the reflash was intended for?

4) You mention you have a AEM wideband. Is it only one wideband? With my Haltech Elite I've seen tune variances between banks of up to +/- 15%. with only one wideband you would have no way to know if a particular bank is running lean. Not a good idea.

5) Ask yourself this question. If all the money you've invested thus far worth limping along with bandaid fixes that could potentially destroy your very expensive motor?
07-16-2019 11:36 PM
kellydood
NGM reflash issue, suggestions needed. Long.

It's been awhile, but I dusted off the ole Tib and looking to do a little track time this summer. I've had a persistent tuning issue with my current setup and figured it couldn't hurt to ask for suggestions. This will be long.

Relevant mods are: fully built 8.8 lower end, NGM Assassin, 460cc injectors, AEM alcohol injection, AEM wideband, Walbro 255 lph pump, and that intake set NGM sold that included a 90mm TB, 4 inch fenderwell intake and MAF, and matched ECU reflash. The car has an AFC Neo and J&S Safeguard Vampire. I have the same mods and the same blower speed as the test car (3.2 upper and stock lower). The test car made 340 whp, and mine feels pretty close to that. I'm making about 17 psi at 7,000 rpm.

The issue I'm having is an unstable fuel curve. It dumps fuel around 2,000 rpm as soon as I tip into it between about 20 to 60%, to the point where it bucks and pegs my wideband rich. It straightens out at higher throttle positions and higher rpm. But past around 5800, it leans out, ending up at low 13s at redline. I'm spraying a lot of alcohol, so there's no detonation, but I don't want to run it that way for long. I did mod the fuel sender and install 3/8 fuel line all the way to the fuel rail, thinking it could be a fuel starvation issue, but there was no change.

I have messed around with the tune a little. I was able to kind of get the AFR toward where I wanted it by cranking up the FP, but then I was cutting a ton of part throttle fuel with the AFC which I didn't like. Adding fuel up top with the AFC doesn't change much, but it does push MAF voltage out of range. I know the reflashes (and the GK ECUs themselves) are very quirky, and tuning them can make them unpredictable.

My first thought was to try to get my tune fixed, but I'm not sure that's cost effective. I'm near Minneapolis, and I think I'd have to get the car to the east coast for tuning. Also, I'd like to be able to make changes when I want to.

I have also thought about going to a local tuner, and having them attempt to dial it in with fuel pressure and the AFC that's on the car. I am concerned that I'd just end up blowing a bunch of money on dyno time, and still not get where I want to be.

Ideally, the car should have a full standalone, but that's going to set me back another 2k easily, and the car will be mothballed yet another year while I save up for one and sort it out. I was really hoping to get out to play this year yet.

I see the F/IC is now working on the V6 cars (this wasn't the case when I last tried one), and I wonder if that wouldn't be an option for my setup?

Anyway, just wondering if any of you had any ideas on this? Thanks in advance.

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