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clutch bleeding issues

2677 Views 48 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  Jorge A, 
Nai150
I just replaced my clutch (ClutchMasters Fx250) flywheel (Ark) as well as the slave cylinder (and removed the spring) and installed a steel braided clutch line, the car shifts decently ish and everything works, but the pedal feels incredibly soft and my transmission now grinds hard going into reverse, i've tried bleeding 3 separate times, any advice is very appreciated!
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Nai150
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chase206 said:
I made a mistake with this advice. I meant that you should adjust the rod longer until the slave stops pushing in. Then you shorten it one to two turns so that you can push back on the slave to return fluid back to the master reservoir.

Essentially you have a variable one way valve in the master cylinder. You want to adjust that master cylinder rod so that the valving allows flow back to the master reservoir with the pedal all the way up in it's resting position. You may have to lift the pedal by hand or foot to it's resting position if the clutch isn't resetting it's position for you. You want the valving the block that flow with about 0.125-0.25" of pedal travel so that pressure builds to disengage the clutch when fully pressed to the floor. If the master rod adjusted too long, the valving will block flow back to the master reservoir at the pedals resting position preventing clutch engagement when the pedal is released. Then if it's adjusted too short it may build pressure too late in the pedal travel to be effective enough to disengage the clutch. There is a fine line of adjustment where it needs to be to function properly.



You don't want to press on the clutch pedal while you are doing the procedure from the video for the final adjustment. What I proposed is as a simple test to see if you have a point at all in the pedal travel where the master valving prevents you from pushing the slave rod in. IE if the master rod is adjusted to the shortest or longest and you can still push the slave rod in... then have someone softly press on the clutch pedal until the valving in the master prevents you from pushing on the slave rod in. If the distance you have to push the pedal is significant like 50% pedal travel, there is no amount of adjusting the master rod that will fix this and you should look into obtaining another master as a last resort.
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when the rod is longest and the valve is closed like you talked about, is that because of that little sensor that the pedal rests on? when i take the master off of the pedal the valve is open, so i assume that closed valve is because you are supposed to adjust where the pedal rests until it pushes the pedal enough to where the valve closes, and then turn the rod side once or twice to open the valve again? well I tried that and I still am having the same problem, if i've done it all correctly the only thing that I can think is I have a TOB issue or a bent clutch fork (which I don't think its either one of those I think its an adjustment issue)
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chase206
The switch is simply to tell your ECM or BCM that you are depressing the clutch. One purpose is to turn off cruise control immediately if the clutch is pressed instead of waiting until the bottom of the clutch travel like it does for starting the car. But that switch does nothing to the master cylinder.

Once you have found a point which the valve blocks flow, shorten the rod by about 1-2 turns and that should set you just right. If you still have problems then you may have a faulty slave, faulty fork or faulty release bearing.

Another problem may be the clutch disc. Are you certain you installed it the right direction? Was it a sprung or rigid disc? The disc may need to be worn in a little bit more so it doesn't catch while fully "disengaged"
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Nai150
chase206 said:
The switch is simply to tell your ECM or BCM that you are depressing the clutch. One purpose is to turn off cruise control immediately if the clutch is pressed instead of waiting until the bottom of the clutch travel like it does for starting the car. But that switch does nothing to the master cylinder.

Once you have found a point which the valve blocks flow, shorten the rod by about 1-2 turns and that should set you just right. If you still have problems then you may have a faulty slave, faulty fork or faulty release bearing.

Another problem may be the clutch disc. Are you certain you installed it the right direction? Was it a sprung or rigid disc? The disc may need to be worn in a little bit more so it doesn't catch while fully "disengaged"
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I'm in the process of pulling the trans off now, I'm positive I have it adjusted properly, it's on the right way, sprung, I put the same clutch in a buddy's car and he never had issues with it not going into gear during break in so I'm just gonna check everything and then probably replace the fork and try it again
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chase206
Nai150 said:
I'm in the process of pulling the trans off now, I'm positive I have it adjusted properly, it's on the right way, sprung, I put the same clutch in a buddy's car and he never had issues with it not going into gear during break in so I'm just gonna check everything and then probably replace the fork and try it again
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While you are in there, measure the depth of your ark flywheel friction surface to the flat area the clutch cover (pressure plate) mounts to. I'm curious if it differs from my Fidanza flywheel which is a common pairing with Clutchmasters discs.
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Nai150
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chase206 said:
While you are in there, measure the depth of your ark flywheel friction surface to the flat area the clutch cover (pressure plate) mounts to. I'm curious if it differs from my Fidanza flywheel which is a common pairing with Clutchmasters discs.
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Like this? Also I don't see anything visibly wrong in here at all

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chase206
The 2nd pic is the correct depth but the reading on your caliper is nearly 3inches or 70mm which can't be right.

I measured my Fidanza depth and it was 8mm or 0.32". My thoughts were if you depth was smaller than that, it's possible that the CM disc may need to be worn or flywheels.needs to be bedded in more to function normally.

What about the torque used on the clutch cover/pressure plate bolts? If you over torqued them you could have trouble fully disengaging the clutch.
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Nai150
chase206 said:
The 2nd pic is the correct depth but the reading on your caliper is nearly 3inches or 70mm which can't be right.

I measured my Fidanza depth and it was 8mm or 0.32". My thoughts were if you depth was smaller than that, it's possible that the CM disc may need to be worn or flywheels.needs to be bedded in more to function normally.

What about the torque used on the clutch cover/pressure plate bolts? If you over torqued them you could have trouble fully disengaging the clutch.
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i'll remeasure the 2nd pic, if I remember right i torqued them 4 lbs over spec because it was something like 14 foot pounds which i thought was dangerously little
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Nai150
chase206 said:
The 2nd pic is the correct depth but the reading on your caliper is nearly 3inches or 70mm which can't be right.

I measured my Fidanza depth and it was 8mm or 0.32". My thoughts were if you depth was smaller than that, it's possible that the CM disc may need to be worn or flywheels.needs to be bedded in more to function normally.

What about the torque used on the clutch cover/pressure plate bolts? If you over torqued them you could have trouble fully disengaging the clutch.
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also I thought about that but I have almost 200 of the 600 break-in miles done so I figured it would be past that point by now, and I did a CM fx250 and fidanza flywheel on an Acura RSX and it never had any issue like this at all, always smooth easy shifting
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chase206
Nai150 said:
i'll remeasure the 2nd pic, if I remember right i torqued them 4 lbs over spec because it was something like 14 foot pounds which i thought was dangerously little
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14 lbs is right for the bolt size and thread type. It's not about the work the bolt is doing, it's about the strength at which the bolt, threads or material you thread it into will yield and start to break. You size the bolt and threads based on the material and holding force you require. You don't need to go higher 14lbs and it will hold no problem since it has lock washers. My last clutch I torqued to 14lbs and it lasted 60k miles no problem.

Nai150 said:
also I thought about that but I have almost 200 of the 600 break-in miles done so I figured it would be past that point by now, and I did a CM fx250 and fidanza flywheel on an Acura RSX and it never had any issue like this at all, always smooth easy shifting
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It took me over 1500 miles to break in my last clutch because I drove mostly highway miles on a 1000 mile round trip as soon as the new clutch was installed. (Literally less than 12 hours after the clutch was completed) It really depends on the type of driving you do. They recommend stop n go traffic for the break in period for quicker results. You can subtract any long highway miles you drive since you aren't actively engaging/disengaging the clutch enough to bed in the materials.
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Nai150
chase206 said:
14 lbs is right for the bolt size and thread type. It's not about the work the bolt is doing, it's about the strength at which the bolt, threads or material you thread it into will yield and start to break. You size the bolt and threads based on the material and holding force you require. You don't need to go higher 14lbs and it will hold no problem since it has lock washers. My last clutch I torqued to 14lbs and it lasted 60k miles no problem.


It took me over 1500 miles to break in my last clutch because I drove mostly highway miles on a 1000 mile round trip as soon as the new clutch was installed. (Literally less than 12 hours after the clutch was completed) It really depends on the type of driving you do. They recommend stop n go traffic for the break in period for quicker results. You can subtract any long highway miles you drive since you aren't actively engaging/disengaging the clutch enough to bed in the materials.
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fair enough most of the driving was highway but I was trying to do as much stop and go as possible, ill remeasure the distance for the flywheel and pressure plate, if it seems very abnormally off then I will buy a fidanza flywheel to replace the Ark, if its fine then ill just re-torque the bolts, replace the clutch fork and TOB, check over everything one more time and then put it all back together
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Nai150
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chase206
Nai150 said:
fair enough most of the driving was highway but I was trying to do as much stop and go as possible, ill remeasure the distance for the flywheel and pressure plate, if it seems very abnormally off then I will buy a fidanza flywheel to replace the Ark, if its fine then ill just re-torque the bolts, replace the clutch fork and TOB, check over everything one more time and then put it all back together
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I'm sure the ARK is fine. I was just curious what the depth would be from the flat mount point on the highest point of the flywheel. It's always possible that quality control was not so great the day they machined your flywheel. Although that's very rare for something like that to slip past QC on a precision part like that.

Looks like you have plenty of clearance that it shouldn't be binding on the disc while the clutch pedal is to the floor. I would continue troubleshooting the hydraulics if I were you.
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chase206
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To be clear, these were the dimensions I was measuring at 8mm or approximately 0.315-0.32 inches. Anything smaller than that may cause you grief.

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Nai150
chase206 said:
I'm sure the ARK is fine. I was just curious what the depth would be from the flat mount point on the highest point of the flywheel. It's always possible that quality control was not so great the day they machined your flywheel. Although that's very rare for something like that to slip past QC on a precision part like that.

Looks like you have plenty of clearance that it shouldn't be binding on the disc while the clutch pedal is to the floor. I would continue troubleshooting the hydraulics if I were you.
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ok cool, waiting on the clutch fork and TOB to show up then I'll put it all back together
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Nai150
everything is back together, same issue... I took several measurements (as in the youtube videos) and the most interesting one is the bite point video (sorry you have to look at my feet I was past the point of care last night lol) there seems to be a decent amount of room before the clutch starts to bite, so I don't think its a problem with the hydraulics not extending all the way anymore, my first thought was fluid, I'm running Redline MT85 GL-4 (fresh fluid but i've been running the same stuff for over a year with no issues) but I wouldn't think if it was the fluid that reverse would grind, it would just be the synchro's that aren't happy.... no idea at this point, the car is still driveable, its just not smooth and to get into reverse without grinding I have to put it into 1st and then immediately take it out and get it in reverse, if I do that it doesn't grind



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Nai150
alright so in total the symptoms right now are, in the air i can go into gear perfectly fine, both 1st and reverse, on the ground with resistance 1st is hard to get into and reverse grinds UNLESS you put it into 1st and then immediately into reverse, not sure why, the bite point on my pedal is not at the very end of the pedal, I have a fair amount of room I can back off before the clutch before it starts engaging again, so I don't think its an issue with not enough clutch fork movement

also just to clarify I've run this issue past 3 ASE certified technicians one of which is a master tech, none of them have a clue
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Nai150
@chase206 can you take a video of your slave cylinder throw please? I'd like to compare what it should be with mine
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chase206
Sorry my clutch release bearing came loose. If I recorded a video it would only go one way without resetting. It would have to wait until I get my new clutch installed later this winter.
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Nai150
chase206 said:
Sorry my clutch release bearing came loose. If I recorded a video it would only go one way without resetting. It would have to wait until I get my new clutch installed later this winter.
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gotcha, thanks anyway, any more ideas for me on mine? Clutch Masters said the only thing they can do is inspect my clutch if i wanna ship it to them
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chase206
Is it possible that you have worn out synchros? Maybe this problem developed more as you were troubleshooting these last few weeks/months and grinding in and out of gear.

I occasionally have a little trouble getting into reverse when my transmission is cold and it depends on what gear oil I'm using. Have you tried the Redline LSP cocktail at all? Which gear oil are you using currently?

Did you replace the release bearing sleeve that bolts to the transmission around the input shaft? If the grooves created by the release bearing are deeply worn it can restrict clutch disengagement near the top end of it's travel.

Surprisingly tire pressure plays a small role in grinding through gears while moving. If there is an imbalance in wheel speed due to tire wear or tire pressure it can cause a slight bind in shifting. This was something I discovered around my 40k mile mark when I started grinding into 2nd and 3rd. Even tire pressure would alleviate it to some extent. This is only affects grinding while rolling however. I presume you are experiencing grinding into 1st and reverse while standing still? Downshifting to 1st while rolling will grind unless you are traveling 15mph or less it seems like.
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