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Discussion Starter #1
Dear NT forum members,

am a huge fan of N/A power. Unlike FI where power is avail just by changin pulleys ( SC) or fiddling with the boost controller , NA engine builders develop titanium drops of sweat on their eyebrows under the pressure of figuring out how to crack one last horse....NA tuning is a romantical , heroic dare I say , type of tunning reminiscent of the old Hot Rod days.....

That said, I have noticed that NA development in our cars is still very limited. The truth is that our Delta V6 engines are dynosaurs compared to modern engines in Honda ( VTEC), BMWs ( VANOS ), Porsche (VARIOCAM ) , Toyota(VVTi) , etc.

Internal combustion car engines are basically an air pump, the more and faster the air/fuel you can cram in , the more power you make , its that simple.

Thanks to the great R&D of TC and others great products have been designed to maximize flow ( inflow/outflow ) with intake, BBTB , heads , headers , exhaust , etc. but we are still laking in one major area : CAMS

That what makes the S2000 F20/22 engines such high-rev screamers and the secret behind its the VTEC.

For the Tiburon , so far, I have only heard of the famous Crower cams but they are almost an urban legend and with such agressive cams, low speed engine operation becomes lousy.

Remember the famous V8 hot rod that had such a radical high RPM cam that couldnt even maintain idle? You dont want that in your Tibby , right?



So I want to present a challenge to all the NT sponsors and developers:

Create VTEC system for our Delta V6 , how difficult that will be?

If you look at Honda's VTEC design its not rocket science, its just one cam with different lobes (profiles) with independant rocker/followers, engine oil drive the mechanism and push the pin that interlocks the followers and "engage/disengage" the lobes.....creating the hardware shouldnt be that difficult for a shop, if you can create a camshaft , then , you should be able to create a VTEC system.

Just image the possiblities , a F20 S2000 engine generates 240hp at the crank because she can spin their small torque (152 lb-ft) all the way to their peak at a lofty 8300 rpm using their High RPM lobe profile on their VTEC system. Their volumetric efficieny is 120hp per litre.

If we could spin our stock Delta V6 max torque ( 181 lb-ft) all the way to 8300 RPM , we could be generating (theorically ) 284 hp, some of our best NA tuned guys here have around 200 lb-ft of max torque.....that will mean theorically 316 crank HP at 8300 rpm.

Lets be even more realistic, lets try a 180 lbt-ft peak at 7000 rpm (240 hp) and still achieve 90% of the peak ( 162 lb-ft ) at 8300( 257 hp)

For comparison a brand new Civic SI generates max torque of 139 lb-ft at 6800 rpm (160 hp) but thanks to the VTEC is still generating 133 lb-ft at 7800 rpm ( 197) , thats still 95% of peak torque.

TC, Malogus...all the expert NA gurus here and the rest of the members , what you think about it ?
 

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The R&D behind VTEC was created by Honda, not an aftermarket company. Research in this field takes a lot of money. Considering our cars are an incredibly small afterthought in the tuning industry, there's not a chance in the world anybody will ever take the time to develop such a complex system for our cars. Anybody can read HowStuffWorks and understand how VTEC operates the way it does. But trust me, there's way more R&D and trial and error than you're thinking.

Basically, what I'm saying is this...

Not in a million years.
 

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While it would be awesome, it just isn't cost effective to turn our slow *** delta's into NA monsters. it is so much cheaper to just slap on a blower and call it a day. While I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who want to pursue your goal, the big companies like NGM probably wont waste their time on N/A parts, when they are just starting to hit the tip of the iceberg with their boosted applications.

you've brought up some good points, but I dont think your task is as simple as a new set of cams. I dont think our engine can handle that kind of abuse (that much torque at those speeds) and survive long. The F20/22's were designed to be high reving.

Just dont be butt hurt when no one jumps on board.
 

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the money to test and create the mold for cams isnt worth the money "they" (company's) would make. THe aftermarket world for Tibs is small for both makers and buyers. How many of us are there compared to honda, acura and mustang guys? the money for R&D is better spent on those kinda vehicles because they will yield higher money gains because there are more customers. if u want serious numbers out of a tib go FI with built block or forget major power, do a few engine mods, tune and call it a day.

The idea is great and i wish it would happen but lord knows the cost of getting the cams for such an application
 

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Could be done. Just not by any one here without some serious financial help......unless some one here is rich.

I loved my 2000 Si....just screamed from 5800 till 8200........I do miss THAT about the car....the delta has what I want though. Torque.
 
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Yeah I thought we had vvt as well dont we? But on the real side of things, vtec is NOT that great, it is a nice little add on, and its cool but its really not worth it for me to buy a new set of heads for a couple grand than to buy a supercharger... Plus the cost of cams...
 

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The Betas have VVT, the Delta does not.
 

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special_fx said:
TC, Malogus...all the expert NA gurus here and the rest of the members , what you think about it ?
I think you're a Honduh fanboy and need to get your head checked.

The cost to develop something like that on a pre-existing engine is not worth the benefit. We have perfectly good cams that make a ton of power up high. With Crower cams you 200 whp from 6000 rpms all the way to redline. I'm not even going to go into any of your other weird %/ratios you calculated about generating x% of torque at redline because thats just a waste of my time.

As for the Crower cams being these urban legends, I can get a set any time anyone wants some, it's just a month or so lag time. I have posted up many times that they are completely available, and some people are actually getting them made right now (bluegtv6 just got a set). It's not so much an urban legend, as much as people don't want them. They are the perfect cam design for our cars, no low-end loss and very little change in driveability, but yet make a ton more high-end hp.

Seriously, to develop a variable timing/cam setup for our engine would cost 10's of thousands of dollars. Your talking a custom design cam with dual lobes, some type of switching system, so type of interface with the existing ECU to determine when to switch the lobes, etc. I think it's seriously one of the dumbest ideas I have seen posted to date (maybe right behind the guy wanting to cut his stock shocks in order to lower the car).
 

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The Mu engine in the 07 Santa Fe has CVVT...
I did a little research on it... Has a different IM that has two extra chambers that open and close during certain types of load on the engine (I believe they call that VIS, variable intake system or something) plus there is the CVVT itself... Found a good bit of info on it on webtech.
Looks like it would be too much of a pain to adapt it to our cars though, not really worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Malogus said:
I think you're a Honduh fanboy and need to get your head checked.
Im not a Honduh fanboy, but I do appreciate the technology they put in their cars. I love my Tibby, but the truth is our V6 engines are undeveloped , clear and simple.

In fact, I only used the S2000 example because it was the most obvious, however there are many other example of better power/hp relation. Just look at any modern BMW I6 for example , good low end torque, healthy midrange , great top end. Nissan's VQ is another great powerplant..and am not getting into the state of the art, like BMW's

Our cars V6 cars stock generate 145whp-ish , and with the Crower cams and all NA goodies we barely dip into low 200s whp which for a heavily tuned NA car is just ok, but no stell.ar

I have nothing agaings the Crower cams , maybe I didnt explained myself too good, english is not my home language, not even my second. What I wanted to say that as good as they are , they have not been widely used or marketed , thus they are like an urband legend, and even then what other options we have?

Of course the R&D of such a system will be have high cost but technically speaking its not rocket science , why it will be so difficult?

Any medium to large size engine developer with deep enough pockets , let say a Lingenfelter-like shop , could do it IMHO.

Why is this idea so dumb? because its expensive? how much has you invested in your car? 5K USD? 10K USD? to get barely over 200 WHP....not too smart either.

Lets put it this way, theorically if you could achieve 270 WHP in a Delta completely NA , how much you will pay? would you pay 10,000 USD for such variable valve timing system ?
 

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We actually have a really nice cam we're going to be bringing to market pretty soon.

Btw i am pretty sure that what a couple of other members have said in this thread is correct in that i believe we do have VVT in our cars already.

Also, High compression NA pistons and oversized valves with those cams would go a LONNNNG way toward getting you to that goal, the vvt isn't nearly as cricital as the engine's mechanical ability to move the air... and i bet it would be cheaper than an adjustable V-TEC system too.
 

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Two easy steps.

Step 1
Buy Turbo
Step 2
Enjoy destroying N/A 2.7 V6 Tiburons with variable valve timing or not, because they would never make the same amount of power as you could with forced induction.

With $5k - 10k you will have well over 300+ whp with a turbo kit.
Considering cams are approximately what $2,500 for the DOHC engine, and now imagine all the extras added on, to make variable valve timing work, even if mass produced in a third world country, to obtain MAYBE 250whp.

It's really a no brainer. Unless your hung up on the technology. Even from the factory though, I would rather buy a not so complicated turbo engine and net much more response from the engine, then a variable valve engine, THE ONLY BENEFIT is long term reliability IMO of a NA engine vs turbo engine.

(Although the domestic market can prove me wrong with blowing gaskets without needing F/I)
 

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Boostology said:
Btw i am pretty sure that what a couple of other members have said in this thread is correct in that i believe we do have VVT in our cars already.
No sir, we don't. Not on the V6.
 

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Perfect example of a little knowledge being dangerous. People just do not get what goes into OEM systems. I guarantee Vtec took Honda years and tens of millions of dollars to perfect, not thousands.
 

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special_fx said:
Im not a Honduh fanboy, but I do appreciate the technology they put in their cars. I love my Tibby, but the truth is our V6 engines are undeveloped , clear and simple.

In fact, I only used the S2000 example because it was the most obvious, however there are many other example of better power/hp relation. Just look at any modern BMW I6 for example , good low end torque, healthy midrange , great top end. Nissan's VQ is another great powerplant..and am not getting into the state of the art, like BMW's

Our cars V6 cars stock generate 145whp-ish , and with the Crower cams and all NA goodies we barely dip into low 200s whp which for a heavily tuned NA car is just ok, but no stell.ar

I have nothing agaings the Crower cams , maybe I didnt explained myself too good, english is not my home language, not even my second. What I wanted to say that as good as they are , they have not been widely used or marketed , thus they are like an urband legend, and even then what other options we have?

Of course the R&D of such a system will be have high cost but technically speaking its not rocket science , why it will be so difficult?

Any medium to large size engine developer with deep enough pockets , let say a Lingenfelter-like shop , could do it IMHO.

Why is this idea so dumb? because its expensive? how much has you invested in your car? 5K USD? 10K USD? to get barely over 200 WHP....not too smart either.

Lets put it this way, theorically if you could achieve 270 WHP in a Delta completely NA , how much you will pay? would you pay 10,000 USD for such variable valve timing system ?
Sorry, I guess you're right...spending 25,000 or so on a car that makes 210 whp and surprisingly beats a lot of bigger, more expensive cars out there (while looking better alot of the time) was a stupid idea on my part.

What I was trying to get at is you are talking Hyundai here, you can't expect the same technological engine advances as honda's high-end motors, or bmw's engines. And finding a "Lingenfelter-type shop" to invest money into the car is just absurd. The best we have is Nextgen, and he does amazing things for these engines. Besides, Lingenfelter isn't redesigning the Chevrolet engines, just making them have a ton more power. Re-engineering an modern-day engine is just a ridiculous thought.
 

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RudyH said:
Two easy steps.

Step 1
Buy Turbo
Step 2
Enjoy destroying N/A 2.7 V6 Tiburons with variable valve timing or not, because they would never make the same amount of power as you could with forced induction.

With $5k - 10k you will have well over 300+ whp with a turbo kit.
Considering cams are approximately what $2,500 for the DOHC engine, and now imagine all the extras added on, to make variable valve timing work, even if mass produced in a third world country, to obtain MAYBE 250whp.

It's really a no brainer. Unless your hung up on the technology. Even from the factory though, I would rather buy a not so complicated turbo engine and net much more response from the engine, then a variable valve engine, THE ONLY BENEFIT is long term reliability IMO of a NA engine vs turbo engine.

(Although the domestic market can prove me wrong with blowing gaskets without needing F/I)

well not everyone wants to go boost, some people just prefer N/A engines

Malogus, with a standalone system and ignition, high comp pistons and the crower cams, what do you think our cars can handle reliably? This is of course including all your basic, I/H/E and tuning.
 

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Toschinator said:
The Mu engine in the 07 Santa Fe has CVVT...
I did a little research on it... Has a different IM that has two extra chambers that open and close during certain types of load on the engine (I believe they call that VIS, variable intake system or something) plus there is the CVVT itself... Found a good bit of info on it on webtech.
Looks like it would be too much of a pain to adapt it to our cars though, not really worth it.
To add some more info here... The Mu engine is using a MAP sensor as well as a MAF sensor...
 
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